Author Topic: November 2009 Balloon Etiquette  (Read 7536 times)

Danny the Idiot

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November 2009 Balloon Etiquette
« on: October 28, 2009, 09:40:59 AM »
Balloon Photo Etiquette


leading on from this thread here
http://http://balloonchat.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1960

November's discussion topic is about crediting the creator , It has also been extended to include

Balloon photos

Balloon DVD's

Balloon Acts

and anything else to do with Balloon Etiquette.



Lets be having your thoughts please.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 05:55:32 PM by Danny the Idiot »
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Graham Lee

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Re: November 2009 Balloon Photo Etiquette
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2009, 10:37:13 AM »
Danny I'd like to widen the discussion if you don't mind to not only pictures but balloon etiquette in general, DVD's, peoples act's etc.
If you just want to keep this thread for pictures then we can start up another one.
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YvonneH

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Re: November 2009 Balloon Photo Etiquette
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2009, 12:18:14 PM »
Not really sure in what respect you are talking about?  

Do you mean where you have seen something, reproduced it yourself and posted pics here or on your website or do you mean stealing peoples pics and passing them off as your own?

I think crediting people on a forum like this is all well and good but realistically I would not feel happy about naming creators of designs on my website since that is my selling tool for my business and not for promoting other people iykwim?

Also with this you can always run into problems because nothing is truly original anymore.  If you come up with something of your own it is more than likely the same or similar to something someone else has already come up with so do they have the right to be upset if you don't credit them even though to you it is an original design?  Not only that but if you are like me (and Graham) I am always trawling the net for new ideas and will unintentionally store images in my head for later but there is not a hope in hell that I can remember where I have seen every design I make.  Also you may not be crediting the correct person - just because you saw it on soandso's website doesn't mean they didn't get if from someone else first.

As for the stealing people's pics and passing them off as your own that imho is out and out theft and should not be done.  Not sure how often it happens in the twisting world but it happens often in face painting and just yesterday I discovered a website with pics stolen from other people.  Not only is the theft of photo's morally wrong it is giving the parents wishing to book a false impression of your skills since (in my experience) whenever someone feels the need to use another's photos (whether with permission or not) they are generally not of a good enough standard to recreate the images they are displaying which will only lead to disappointed kids/parents and bring the industry as a whole down in the eyes of every adult at that party.

Danny the Idiot

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Re: November 2009 Balloon Photo Etiquette
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2009, 09:00:59 PM »
Hi Graham,

yes I would love to widen the discussion to include

Balloon photos

Balloon DVD's

Balloon Acts

and anything else to do with Balloon Etiquette.

danny   :shock:
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Danny the Idiot

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Re: November 2009 Balloon Photo Etiquette
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2009, 09:07:53 PM »
Yvonne, Its all up for debate so thanks for kicking it off!

From my perspective I have had a few problems in that I give theatres images of me to put into brochures and publicise the show. I have had a few naughty venues stealing other images off my website and using those instead. So now I will be watermarking all photos on my website.

I will then be able to give the ones I want them to use without watermarks. Its more work but hey - it avoids other problems too.

thats all for now....


let the debate begin!!!!   :evil:
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YvonneH

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Re: November 2009 Balloon Photo Etiquette
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2009, 09:59:42 PM »
I'm with you now on that one Danny and all my new photos are watermarked.  I would prefer not to have to but if someone is going to steal my pics then I want them to be advertising for me  ;)

Normski

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Re: November 2009 Balloon Photo Etiquette
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2009, 12:39:23 PM »
Ok, typing on the mob so will be specific.......this is a great topic will certainly ruffle some feathers. I believe all work should be credited where possible, I personally am trying harder to be more creative but have always been a copy cat artist, when I work people ask how I come up with my designs and I always will say something like " a friend of mine called 5on caldwell taught it to me" I have my own designs but I always tell people that balloon artists I know are very generous with there knowledge and like to share if ur prepared to learn.......If I post a design on facebook of another artists work I will say minnie mouse thanks grahma lee for design! But should I have to do that??? No I don't but it is respect for the person who sits there till 3 am working a design or posting instructions at a small cost or no cost! I have more to say on this but tooo slow on mob!!!
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Billy Wiz

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Re: November 2009 Balloon Photo Etiquette
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2009, 08:51:49 AM »
Very interesting topic.

I did a 24 week (every Friday) summer season for two holiday camps (both owned by the same company) in Woolacombe Bay a few years ago. Without me knowing they were taking some photos during one of my shows. A couple of weeks later, I noticed they were advertising another entertainer who work a different day from me, who also used balloon modelling (VERY basic) in his show. But the holiday camp used a photo from MY show to advertise him. The photo was of a space mans suit which I've designed and built up over many years.

The photo was of a child wearing it during my show. I did ask a few times for them to remove it, but they never did!!!!!!!!!!

I also get frustrated when people steal from your website, not just photos, but sometimes a whole page at a time. I've recently noticed someone had copied my whole page from my venue index and pasted the page to their site. I've had my FAQ page stolen, my party tips page stolen. I know of someone else who had their ‘testimonials’ stolen.

One of BIGGEST pet hates is people stealing anything from someone else who has put so much time into it themselves. It happens to me so much and frustrates the hell out of me. I’ve heard customers saying in the past, ‘oh, so and so does that’ or on the phone, they’ve said in the past, ‘so and so also offers the same as you but for less the price’.

YES, so and so offers all that because they know it’s successful for me!!!!!

As for DVD’s, I think that’s different,  if someone is selling a DVD with balloon instructions on it, then surely they are given the purchaser permission to make that balloon. You shouldn’t have to give credit for anything you make from the DVD. Although if someone should ask on a forum like this, then it’s obviously polite to acknowledge who’s DVD it was.
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YvonneH

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Re: November 2009 Balloon Photo Etiquette
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2009, 10:08:01 AM »
I think I have slightly differing views on some of this subject to a lot of you due to how I started out and the different accepted norm in the face painting industry to the balloon industry.

In face painting no one expects credit if you copy their design and it is the same if you follow a step by step or DVD.  However, if you "borrow" a face painters photo from their site or elsewhere then expect to be hunted down like a dog and made to remove them.

If posting on here I usually try to credit whoever I saw the design from first but I am sure they either saw the design before themselves or at least saw elements of those designs somewhere else and put them together so it can be a little tricky.  

As I said before though if I have made the model (whether it be from a dvd or a picture I have seen) then on here I am happy to credit (if I can remember) but on my website I prefer not to.  Firstly, because I don't think the general public care who came up with the design and secondly my website is my marketing tool and in the nicest possible way I do not wish to promote my competition especially since a few of you will cover my area  ;).  It is my belief that parents simply care whether you live up to the same standard as your photos as that is what they based their decision to hire you on.  

When I have been on jobs I will never claim credit for someone else's designs if I am asked if I "made it up" myself but I rarely tell them the name of who did - mainly cos I can't remember my own name sometimes.

Graeme re your photo being used by the company to advertise a different artist, whilst this is not legally wrong it certainly is morally wrong.  Unfortunately, when working in public if someone takes a photo of you they own the copyright and can use it for any purpose they see fit.

I do, however, believe things like your photo being used for an inferior acts show will do nothing but harm to our industry.  I presume that the people attending the show would have been seeing it as part of their holiday package and not paying extra but in any event may have based their decision on whether to see the show on the advertising.  They will then get the impression that a lot of twisters / magicians etc use others photos because they are really rubbish and they will be put off hiring someone because they cannot be sure that they will get the standard they see on a website or flyer.

As for people staling your act Graeme that is terrible and then to deliberately undercut you too is even worse.  That is another reason why I now concentrate more on the balloon side of my business than the face painting as there are too many cheap and cheerful painters round here charging around half the price I do and I just cannot compete in a not very affluent area and in a recession.

Fuzzy

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Re: November 2009 Balloon Photo Etiquette
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2009, 01:28:12 PM »
I have been coppied by a local guy who I helped, he used my brochure and other stuff word for word.

Did not affect my business and he got some work out of it which is great for him....but not at my prices.

There is nothing I do or have that cannot be copied and it does not worry me.

I'm always looking out for what is working for others and adding it to my swipe files so I can use for inspiration at times.

I choose to modify what other people do rather than copy, so is that wrong?
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Danny the Idiot

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Re: November 2009 Balloon Photo Etiquette
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2009, 11:31:58 PM »
** Bumpety Bump **

Lets have your views please!!!!
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Tonya

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Re: November 2009 Balloon Photo Etiquette
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2009, 10:01:19 PM »
I try to always give credit when I use someone else's design, whether I see it posted somewhere, use it from a CD/DVD, or even when I modify it. There have been a few times I don't remember where I've seen a particular design, or who made it, and I mention that also.  I think it's just a nice thing to do.

I also think though that if I post something, whether it be here or on any other balloon site, I am basically giving my permission for anyone to copy it or modify it for their own use, as long as they made it.  If I get credit for it...great!
But, if I don't...well, that's okay too.  I'm flattered that someone likes my design well enough to use/make it.  

Like on our Model of the month, I like to encourage people to try my designs, and change them to make it their own if it doesn't work for them. I think that's how balloons have evolved as much as they have, and that it needs to be like that for it to grow even more.  

What I DON'T think is right, is people that copy pictures from other people's sites and post them on their own or use them like in Billy's case and claim that it is theirs.  If you have the artist's permission to use their photo, that's one thing, but if not and you use it...that's just not cool.

Just my opinion.
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Have a happy day \":-)\"

Tonya

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Re: November 2009 Balloon Etiquette
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2009, 02:43:28 AM »
Well I was a little ticked off about this one!!

Seems a nightclub promoter in Denver decided he could use my image to promote his balloon fetish night.

Irony.... could not get a lawyer to take the case. Upside got it removed and an appology.
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Tonya

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Re: November 2009 Balloon Etiquette
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2009, 01:05:03 PM »
I don't blame you for getting mad Mark...Glad you got it worked out.
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Tonya

Danny the Idiot

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Re: November 2009 Balloon Etiquette
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2009, 05:35:34 PM »
Hi Mark,

I'm gald it worked out in the end too.

If the guy had rung you and asked  "can i use your image?" would that be ok? Would permission seeking and upfront people change things?

Just curious!

cheers
Danny, soon off to The Millenium Jam YAY!
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