Author Topic: November 2009 Balloon Etiquette  (Read 7537 times)

Graham Lee

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Re: November 2009 Balloon Etiquette
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2009, 08:22:15 PM »
I have been putting off writing about this subject due to the sensitivity and nearly everyone having different thoughts about the subject but I did promise Danny that I would comment and he has reminded me a couple of times, so the easy things first.
Please note this is just my opinion;

If you are advertising on your website and you have made the models yourself from a DVD or a model from a forum post then there is no need to credit anyone as you are promoting yourself as long as you made the model.
When out working and someone asks you if you came up with the designs, if you want to say yes then do, no problem. Or embellish the truth a little as you’re out working and need to promote yourself.

When making a new design I feel you should remember where it came from so that when you do need to credit you can thank the correct person accordingly, many a post goes onto forums saying, sorry I can’t remember where I got this model from etc. It would be nice to make a note for future reference as the designer is helping you too big yourself up in the real world and although they are not worried about credit in the real world when you are working it would be nice for them to have there work recognised and credited amongst the twister community.

So that is the easy bit, now onto the grey area.
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Graham Lee

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Re: November 2009 Balloon Etiquette
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2009, 10:10:22 AM »
When buying a DVD what is right?
Once you have bought the DVD it’s yours and you can do whatever you wish.
True, but……..

If you lend it to a friend, is it right that they make the models from it, go out entertaining with said models and make money from the models and the originator of the said DVD does not receive anything.

My opinion is this is not right, if you use someone else’s designs you do need to thank them and purchase the DVD, again because they are helping to big you up in the real world.

Should you go around showing and teaching designs from a DVD or what you have learnt from a convention?

If you don’t balloon modelling would not have evolved to where it is today and will not carry on doing so if people refuse to share……………..but;

Where does one start and stop as without sharing the care & share days would not have evolved, but if everyone just passed on the knowledge from a DVD or convention is this fair on the designer of the models. NO it isn’t.

There is no easy answer to any of this but if you make money from using someone’s design surely it is right to credit them on forums when you post their models and to thank them by buying their DVD’s. Some will say that the DVD’s are expensive but you need to take into account production costs and the very small market place to sell the DVD’s, a balloon DVD is not like the latest blockbuster film that will sell millions of copies.

Like with all walks of life there are givers and takers but lets try to thank and give credit to those that take the time to give and come up with the designs and do give freely. They put their money into making the DVD, editing, advertising and promoting to help everyone in our balloon community and receive very little in return.
When you are out working and making money from someone else’s design surely they deserve to earn from it as well.

As the balloon world grows lets try and do the right thing, because as the balloon world grows hopefully you and your business will grow as well and in years to come there will still be those willing to give and help our industry grow.

Please try and give something back, it’s an amazing industry to be in with so many friendly, talented and truly giving people. The bond of friendship within our community is second to none and I believe we are all striving to keep it that way as it grows over the coming years. Just attend a balloon convention to see the camaraderie between people that do not even speak the same language.
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Graham Lee

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Re: November 2009 Balloon Etiquette
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2009, 10:13:17 AM »
A question or two to ponder?

If you make all the models from a DVD and then sell it on,
1, Is it still ok to make the models from the DVD and
2, Is it OK to buy a second hand DVD.
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Danny the Idiot

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Re: November 2009 Balloon Etiquette
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2009, 12:09:54 PM »
Thanks for your thoughts Graham.

I agree with most of what you say but in the real world there are some people without scruples, or without money and will buy second hand DVDs or borrow stuff off friends.

What happens when the creators of DVD's/ new models and techniques cease to share their knowledge?

Already at TMJ one person I know said they didn't want to experiment in the  Jam room for fear of stuff being copied. Yet someone else created a new weave, which was then replicated, photographed...

My answer to this is simple.  Copy cats can only copy. If you are good at creativity, you will always create new stuff.

Must go catch a plane,
Danny  :)
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Dave

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Re: November 2009 Balloon Etiquette
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2009, 02:19:36 PM »
At the end of the day it's a risk the artist must take, by bringing out a dvd they claim the model/ sculpture it also gives them recognition. if someone makes Ken's stuff I know cause he shared it same with Mark, Graham, Thelma, Patrica, Petra and so on, most I only know because of there publication so it's about fame as well.
Every magic club I have been to has a library even the Magic circle, are they wrong?
Also there are so many dvd's books and pdf's where do you start?
I do not share things I have bought but I do show stuff from them, if they like they can buy.
I think it's wrong to use other people's photo's without asking first.
As to buying and selling, should we destroy the material once we have finished with it?

Regards

Dave, Devil advocate
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YvonneH

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Re: November 2009 Balloon Etiquette
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2009, 02:41:21 PM »
I'm like Danny I pretty much agree with most of what you say but not completely  ;)   IMO there really is no such thing as a truely unique design as every model is based on the same techniques and the likelihood is someone out there has already come up with the same design before you did.  

I'm not saying that if I saw something and consciously copied bits from it I wouldn't, in a situation like this, credit the person from whose model I drew inspiration, however, I have now seen so many models etc I cannot possibly remember who or where I saw everything so when trying things out myself at home I actually manage to come up with something usable (not happened yet but maybe one day  ;) ) I will probably be using ideas I have gleaned off of others without consciously doing so.  Does anyone understand what I am rabbiting on about? I think I am even confusing myself now  :roll:

Not sure where I stand on the second hand DVD/CD front though as I have never even considered looking for them.  I suppose it is not illegal but realistically how many people on here ever part with their dvd's and cd's?  Not many I would bet.  Even I have outgrown some of my stuff but I still keep it just in case.

Billy Wiz

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Re: November 2009 Balloon Etiquette
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2009, 03:48:16 PM »
Just a thought . . . . . can ANYONE on here honestly say they have never ever brought or borrowed a DVD from someone else? Not just balloon DVD's, movies or PC software as well. Or maybe you've lent a DVD to someone before.

Whether it's balloons, magic, movies or PC software, it's all the same. I'm not saying it's OK, I'm just making a point that not everyone is inocent.
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Martin

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Re: November 2009 Balloon Etiquette
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2009, 04:17:31 PM »
Quote from: "Graham Lee"
A question or two to ponder?

If you make all the models from a DVD and then sell it on,
1, Is it still ok to make the models from the DVD and
2, Is it OK to buy a second hand DVD.

Another question...

If you see a picture of what is on the DVD and can make it without even buying the DVD in the 1st place is that OK?
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Graham Lee

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Re: November 2009 Balloon Etiquette
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2009, 04:25:25 PM »
Quote from: "Dave"
Every magic club I have been to has a library even the Magic circle, are they wrong?
In my opinion, Yes.
Every year at a magic club I attend we always discuss this at the AGM and the members always vote for it.
A public library pays far more in royalties for the books etc than you do when you buy from w.h.smith etc
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Graham Lee

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Re: November 2009 Balloon Etiquette
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2009, 04:34:43 PM »
Quote from: "YvonneH"
IMO there really is no such thing as a truely unique design as every model is based on the same techniques and the likelihood is someone out there has already come up with the same design before you did.

I appreciate we would not be where we are today without all that has gone before in the twisting world and the new techniques that are coming out now have been inspired from everything that has gone before. But I have to dis-agree with you on this one Yvonne, there are still plenty of truly unique sculptures and techniques coming out from the balloon world. The balloon world is still so new, only last week at the millennium jam I saw a new technique on the tac-weave that had me buzzing and actually making the weave and I never twist at conventions, so it must have been good to get me twisting.
Sabina and her loop weave technique for her fish scales and flowers etc is new and all the animals and sculptures with moveable limbs come from the rabbit Sabina entered at the millennium jam in 2004 I think it was.
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YvonneH

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Re: November 2009 Balloon Etiquette
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2009, 05:41:22 PM »
Okay Graham I concede but honestly anything I could come up with by myself I am pretty sure has been made by someone before me  ;)

Graham Lee

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Re: November 2009 Balloon Etiquette
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2009, 05:56:39 PM »
Quote from: "YvonneH"
Okay Graham I concede but honestly anything I could come up with by myself I am pretty sure has been made by someone before me  ;)
Yvonne, please don't concede. Everyone has opinions and yours are just as valid as anyone else. If you think that there is nothing new, that's fine but as the balloon industry as we know it is still so young, I have some balloon modelling books dated from
( I thought some were from around 1940 ) but can't lay my hands on them at the moment.
Balloon animals were twisted from animal gut in the Egyptian times but the 260 as we know it is relatively still new and around 60'ish years old.
Where is the balloon historian when you need one  :lol:
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Graham Lee

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Re: November 2009 Balloon Etiquette
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2009, 06:46:01 PM »
This was an interesting read from wikipedia although some of the facts/quotes are a little off;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balloon#Ba ... ons_in_art
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sabina

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Re: November 2009 Balloon Etiquette
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2009, 09:53:50 PM »
Hi, I am a continuous reader of this great forum but lazy in formulating my thoughts in english (sometimes it takes me too much time until the topic is not active any more ;)

I guess it`s right that every model is based on the same basic twisting-techniques, and of course it´s not possible to credit everyone who may have influenced a certain figure. But I think it makes a difference to rebuild a sculpture more or less the same way we have seen it before, or to come up with new ideas and concepts, or to catch a certain famous character.
In that way I agree with Tonya that it`s nice and fair to credit people on a balloonforum if we can (remember), especially if it`s a currently used idea (e.g. Patrick van de Ven came up with a new basic idea for little figures; at millenniumjam people were playing around with this concept and they created some amazing characters – it was great and informative for me that they mentioned that these figures were based on Patrick`s idea ).
In my opinion it would not make sense to credit other artists  if advertising for our work. But definitely an artist should use his own pictures of sculptures he twisted himself  – otherwise he would fool the customer.
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YvonneH

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Re: November 2009 Balloon Etiquette
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2009, 07:56:16 AM »
Sabina I think you put my point better than I could!  I definitely used the wrong words with my point above which is why I conceded Graham  ;)   I just think that something even though we may, in the comfort of our own living room, believe is a truly original model has probably also been created before somewhere in the world and may even be posted on websites too.  However, just because it has does not mean that you have borrowed the design!

Also just to play devil's advocate would the lending of dvd's and cd's not increase sale rather than decrease them?  I mean instructional materials for balloons are a lot of money (especially in these times of economic hardship) and although I do understand why it is still a reasonable amount of money for someone to spend blind iykwim?

That aside when making a decision to purchase a CD or DVD I prefer to see it in person before making the decision to part with my cash.  Before now I have purchase okish DVD's and rubbish CD's because I haven't had the opportunity to see what I was buying before I did so.  If I had the opportunity to actually see the contents (not on the net as obviously there are too many that can make models from pics and even a few that would then not feel the need to purchase) and make a proper evaluation of the contents to see if they were what I needed at that particular time I would buy them and if they were too simplistic I know I could recommend them to people just beginning and if they were too advanced I could put them on my wish list for another time when I have improved!

I am thankful to those who produce instructional materials and when I can afford to I do purchase them but it is not often as things are tight so I am even more thankful for resources like this one or I would never be able to improve  ;)