Balloon Chat
Uncategorized Boards => Topic/Discussion Of The Month => Topic started by: Danny the Idiot on October 28, 2009, 09:40:59 AM
Balloon Photo Etiquette
leading on from this thread here
//http://balloonchat.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1960
November's discussion topic is about crediting the creator , It has also been extended to include
Balloon photos
Balloon DVD's
Balloon Acts
and anything else to do with Balloon Etiquette.
Lets be having your thoughts please.
Danny I'd like to widen the discussion if you don't mind to not only pictures but balloon etiquette in general, DVD's, peoples act's etc.
If you just want to keep this thread for pictures then we can start up another one.
Not really sure in what respect you are talking about?
Do you mean where you have seen something, reproduced it yourself and posted pics here or on your website or do you mean stealing peoples pics and passing them off as your own?
I think crediting people on a forum like this is all well and good but realistically I would not feel happy about naming creators of designs on my website since that is my selling tool for my business and not for promoting other people iykwim?
Also with this you can always run into problems because nothing is truly original anymore. If you come up with something of your own it is more than likely the same or similar to something someone else has already come up with so do they have the right to be upset if you don't credit them even though to you it is an original design? Not only that but if you are like me (and Graham) I am always trawling the net for new ideas and will unintentionally store images in my head for later but there is not a hope in hell that I can remember where I have seen every design I make. Also you may not be crediting the correct person - just because you saw it on soandso's website doesn't mean they didn't get if from someone else first.
As for the stealing people's pics and passing them off as your own that imho is out and out theft and should not be done. Not sure how often it happens in the twisting world but it happens often in face painting and just yesterday I discovered a website with pics stolen from other people. Not only is the theft of photo's morally wrong it is giving the parents wishing to book a false impression of your skills since (in my experience) whenever someone feels the need to use another's photos (whether with permission or not) they are generally not of a good enough standard to recreate the images they are displaying which will only lead to disappointed kids/parents and bring the industry as a whole down in the eyes of every adult at that party.
Hi Graham,
yes I would love to widen the discussion to include
Balloon photos
Balloon DVD's
Balloon Acts
and anything else to do with Balloon Etiquette.
danny :shock:
Yvonne, Its all up for debate so thanks for kicking it off!
From my perspective I have had a few problems in that I give theatres images of me to put into brochures and publicise the show. I have had a few naughty venues stealing other images off my website and using those instead. So now I will be watermarking all photos on my website.
I will then be able to give the ones I want them to use without watermarks. Its more work but hey - it avoids other problems too.
thats all for now....
let the debate begin!!!! :evil:
I'm with you now on that one Danny and all my new photos are watermarked. I would prefer not to have to but if someone is going to steal my pics then I want them to be advertising for me ;)
Ok, typing on the mob so will be specific.......this is a great topic will certainly ruffle some feathers. I believe all work should be credited where possible, I personally am trying harder to be more creative but have always been a copy cat artist, when I work people ask how I come up with my designs and I always will say something like " a friend of mine called 5on caldwell taught it to me" I have my own designs but I always tell people that balloon artists I know are very generous with there knowledge and like to share if ur prepared to learn.......If I post a design on facebook of another artists work I will say minnie mouse thanks grahma lee for design! But should I have to do that??? No I don't but it is respect for the person who sits there till 3 am working a design or posting instructions at a small cost or no cost! I have more to say on this but tooo slow on mob!!!
Very interesting topic.
I did a 24 week (every Friday) summer season for two holiday camps (both owned by the same company) in Woolacombe Bay a few years ago. Without me knowing they were taking some photos during one of my shows. A couple of weeks later, I noticed they were advertising another entertainer who work a different day from me, who also used balloon modelling (VERY basic) in his show. But the holiday camp used a photo from MY show to advertise him. The photo was of a space mans suit which I've designed and built up over many years.
The photo was of a child wearing it during my show. I did ask a few times for them to remove it, but they never did!!!!!!!!!!
I also get frustrated when people steal from your website, not just photos, but sometimes a whole page at a time. I've recently noticed someone had copied my whole page from my venue index and pasted the page to their site. I've had my FAQ page stolen, my party tips page stolen. I know of someone else who had their 'testimonials' stolen.
One of BIGGEST pet hates is people stealing anything from someone else who has put so much time into it themselves. It happens to me so much and frustrates the hell out of me. I've heard customers saying in the past, 'oh, so and so does that' or on the phone, they've said in the past, 'so and so also offers the same as you but for less the price'.
YES, so and so offers all that because they know it's successful for me!!!!!
As for DVD's, I think that's different, if someone is selling a DVD with balloon instructions on it, then surely they are given the purchaser permission to make that balloon. You shouldn't have to give credit for anything you make from the DVD. Although if someone should ask on a forum like this, then it's obviously polite to acknowledge who's DVD it was.
I think I have slightly differing views on some of this subject to a lot of you due to how I started out and the different accepted norm in the face painting industry to the balloon industry.
In face painting no one expects credit if you copy their design and it is the same if you follow a step by step or DVD. However, if you "borrow" a face painters photo from their site or elsewhere then expect to be hunted down like a dog and made to remove them.
If posting on here I usually try to credit whoever I saw the design from first but I am sure they either saw the design before themselves or at least saw elements of those designs somewhere else and put them together so it can be a little tricky.
As I said before though if I have made the model (whether it be from a dvd or a picture I have seen) then on here I am happy to credit (if I can remember) but on my website I prefer not to. Firstly, because I don't think the general public care who came up with the design and secondly my website is my marketing tool and in the nicest possible way I do not wish to promote my competition especially since a few of you will cover my area ;). It is my belief that parents simply care whether you live up to the same standard as your photos as that is what they based their decision to hire you on.
When I have been on jobs I will never claim credit for someone else's designs if I am asked if I "made it up" myself but I rarely tell them the name of who did - mainly cos I can't remember my own name sometimes.
Graeme re your photo being used by the company to advertise a different artist, whilst this is not legally wrong it certainly is morally wrong. Unfortunately, when working in public if someone takes a photo of you they own the copyright and can use it for any purpose they see fit.
I do, however, believe things like your photo being used for an inferior acts show will do nothing but harm to our industry. I presume that the people attending the show would have been seeing it as part of their holiday package and not paying extra but in any event may have based their decision on whether to see the show on the advertising. They will then get the impression that a lot of twisters / magicians etc use others photos because they are really rubbish and they will be put off hiring someone because they cannot be sure that they will get the standard they see on a website or flyer.
As for people staling your act Graeme that is terrible and then to deliberately undercut you too is even worse. That is another reason why I now concentrate more on the balloon side of my business than the face painting as there are too many cheap and cheerful painters round here charging around half the price I do and I just cannot compete in a not very affluent area and in a recession.
I have been coppied by a local guy who I helped, he used my brochure and other stuff word for word.
Did not affect my business and he got some work out of it which is great for him....but not at my prices.
There is nothing I do or have that cannot be copied and it does not worry me.
I'm always looking out for what is working for others and adding it to my swipe files so I can use for inspiration at times.
I choose to modify what other people do rather than copy, so is that wrong?
** Bumpety Bump **
Lets have your views please!!!!
I try to always give credit when I use someone else's design, whether I see it posted somewhere, use it from a CD/DVD, or even when I modify it. There have been a few times I don't remember where I've seen a particular design, or who made it, and I mention that also. I think it's just a nice thing to do.
I also think though that if I post something, whether it be here or on any other balloon site, I am basically giving my permission for anyone to copy it or modify it for their own use, as long as they made it. If I get credit for it...great!
But, if I don't...well, that's okay too. I'm flattered that someone likes my design well enough to use/make it.
Like on our Model of the month, I like to encourage people to try my designs, and change them to make it their own if it doesn't work for them. I think that's how balloons have evolved as much as they have, and that it needs to be like that for it to grow even more.
What I DON'T think is right, is people that copy pictures from other people's sites and post them on their own or use them like in Billy's case and claim that it is theirs. If you have the artist's permission to use their photo, that's one thing, but if not and you use it...that's just not cool.
Just my opinion.
Well I was a little ticked off about this one!!
Seems a nightclub promoter in Denver decided he could use my image to promote his balloon fetish night.
Irony.... could not get a lawyer to take the case. Upside got it removed and an appology.
I don't blame you for getting mad Mark...Glad you got it worked out.
Hi Mark,
I'm gald it worked out in the end too.
If the guy had rung you and asked "can i use your image?" would that be ok? Would permission seeking and upfront people change things?
Just curious!
cheers
Danny, soon off to The Millenium Jam YAY!
I have been putting off writing about this subject due to the sensitivity and nearly everyone having different thoughts about the subject but I did promise Danny that I would comment and he has reminded me a couple of times, so the easy things first.
Please note this is just my opinion;
If you are advertising on your website and you have made the models yourself from a DVD or a model from a forum post then there is no need to credit anyone as you are promoting yourself as long as you made the model.
When out working and someone asks you if you came up with the designs, if you want to say yes then do, no problem. Or embellish the truth a little as you're out working and need to promote yourself.
When making a new design I feel you should remember where it came from so that when you do need to credit you can thank the correct person accordingly, many a post goes onto forums saying, sorry I can't remember where I got this model from etc. It would be nice to make a note for future reference as the designer is helping you too big yourself up in the real world and although they are not worried about credit in the real world when you are working it would be nice for them to have there work recognised and credited amongst the twister community.
So that is the easy bit, now onto the grey area.
When buying a DVD what is right?
Once you have bought the DVD it's yours and you can do whatever you wish.
True, but........
If you lend it to a friend, is it right that they make the models from it, go out entertaining with said models and make money from the models and the originator of the said DVD does not receive anything.
My opinion is this is not right, if you use someone else's designs you do need to thank them and purchase the DVD, again because they are helping to big you up in the real world.
Should you go around showing and teaching designs from a DVD or what you have learnt from a convention?
If you don't balloon modelling would not have evolved to where it is today and will not carry on doing so if people refuse to share.................but;
Where does one start and stop as without sharing the care & share days would not have evolved, but if everyone just passed on the knowledge from a DVD or convention is this fair on the designer of the models. NO it isn't.
There is no easy answer to any of this but if you make money from using someone's design surely it is right to credit them on forums when you post their models and to thank them by buying their DVD's. Some will say that the DVD's are expensive but you need to take into account production costs and the very small market place to sell the DVD's, a balloon DVD is not like the latest blockbuster film that will sell millions of copies.
Like with all walks of life there are givers and takers but lets try to thank and give credit to those that take the time to give and come up with the designs and do give freely. They put their money into making the DVD, editing, advertising and promoting to help everyone in our balloon community and receive very little in return.
When you are out working and making money from someone else's design surely they deserve to earn from it as well.
As the balloon world grows lets try and do the right thing, because as the balloon world grows hopefully you and your business will grow as well and in years to come there will still be those willing to give and help our industry grow.
Please try and give something back, it's an amazing industry to be in with so many friendly, talented and truly giving people. The bond of friendship within our community is second to none and I believe we are all striving to keep it that way as it grows over the coming years. Just attend a balloon convention to see the camaraderie between people that do not even speak the same language.
A question or two to ponder?
If you make all the models from a DVD and then sell it on,
1, Is it still ok to make the models from the DVD and
2, Is it OK to buy a second hand DVD.
Thanks for your thoughts Graham.
I agree with most of what you say but in the real world there are some people without scruples, or without money and will buy second hand DVDs or borrow stuff off friends.
What happens when the creators of DVD's/ new models and techniques cease to share their knowledge?
Already at TMJ one person I know said they didn't want to experiment in the Jam room for fear of stuff being copied. Yet someone else created a new weave, which was then replicated, photographed...
My answer to this is simple. Copy cats can only copy. If you are good at creativity, you will always create new stuff.
Must go catch a plane,
Danny :)
At the end of the day it's a risk the artist must take, by bringing out a dvd they claim the model/ sculpture it also gives them recognition. if someone makes Ken's stuff I know cause he shared it same with Mark, Graham, Thelma, Patrica, Petra and so on, most I only know because of there publication so it's about fame as well.
Every magic club I have been to has a library even the Magic circle, are they wrong?
Also there are so many dvd's books and pdf's where do you start?
I do not share things I have bought but I do show stuff from them, if they like they can buy.
I think it's wrong to use other people's photo's without asking first.
As to buying and selling, should we destroy the material once we have finished with it?
Regards
Dave, Devil advocate
I'm like Danny I pretty much agree with most of what you say but not completely ;) IMO there really is no such thing as a truely unique design as every model is based on the same techniques and the likelihood is someone out there has already come up with the same design before you did.
I'm not saying that if I saw something and consciously copied bits from it I wouldn't, in a situation like this, credit the person from whose model I drew inspiration, however, I have now seen so many models etc I cannot possibly remember who or where I saw everything so when trying things out myself at home I actually manage to come up with something usable (not happened yet but maybe one day ;) ) I will probably be using ideas I have gleaned off of others without consciously doing so. Does anyone understand what I am rabbiting on about? I think I am even confusing myself now :roll:
Not sure where I stand on the second hand DVD/CD front though as I have never even considered looking for them. I suppose it is not illegal but realistically how many people on here ever part with their dvd's and cd's? Not many I would bet. Even I have outgrown some of my stuff but I still keep it just in case.
Just a thought . . . . . can ANYONE on here honestly say they have never ever brought or borrowed a DVD from someone else? Not just balloon DVD's, movies or PC software as well. Or maybe you've lent a DVD to someone before.
Whether it's balloons, magic, movies or PC software, it's all the same. I'm not saying it's OK, I'm just making a point that not everyone is inocent.
Quote from: "Graham Lee"A question or two to ponder?
If you make all the models from a DVD and then sell it on,
1, Is it still ok to make the models from the DVD and
2, Is it OK to buy a second hand DVD.
Another question...
If you see a picture of what is on the DVD and can make it without even buying the DVD in the 1st place is that OK?
Quote from: "Dave"Every magic club I have been to has a library even the Magic circle, are they wrong?
In my opinion, Yes.
Every year at a magic club I attend we always discuss this at the AGM and the members always vote for it.
A public library pays far more in royalties for the books etc than you do when you buy from w.h.smith etc
Quote from: "YvonneH"IMO there really is no such thing as a truely unique design as every model is based on the same techniques and the likelihood is someone out there has already come up with the same design before you did.
I appreciate we would not be where we are today without all that has gone before in the twisting world and the new techniques that are coming out now have been inspired from everything that has gone before. But I have to dis-agree with you on this one Yvonne, there are still plenty of truly unique sculptures and techniques coming out from the balloon world. The balloon world is still so new, only last week at the millennium jam I saw a new technique on the tac-weave that had me buzzing and actually making the weave and I never twist at conventions, so it must have been good to get me twisting.
Sabina and her loop weave technique for her fish scales and flowers etc is new and all the animals and sculptures with moveable limbs come from the rabbit Sabina entered at the millennium jam in 2004 I think it was.
Okay Graham I concede but honestly anything I could come up with by myself I am pretty sure has been made by someone before me ;)
Quote from: "YvonneH"Okay Graham I concede but honestly anything I could come up with by myself I am pretty sure has been made by someone before me ;)
Yvonne, please don't concede. Everyone has opinions and yours are just as valid as anyone else. If you think that there is nothing new, that's fine but as the balloon industry as we know it is still so young, I have some balloon modelling books dated from
( I thought some were from around 1940 ) but can't lay my hands on them at the moment.
Balloon animals were twisted from animal gut in the Egyptian times but the 260 as we know it is relatively still new and around 60'ish years old.
Where is the balloon historian when you need one :lol:
This was an interesting read from wikipedia although some of the facts/quotes are a little off;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balloon#Ba ... ons_in_art (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balloon#Balloon_modeling_and_balloons_in_art)
Hi, I am a continuous reader of this great forum but lazy in formulating my thoughts in english (sometimes it takes me too much time until the topic is not active any more ;)
I guess it`s right that every model is based on the same basic twisting-techniques, and of course it´s not possible to credit everyone who may have influenced a certain figure. But I think it makes a difference to rebuild a sculpture more or less the same way we have seen it before, or to come up with new ideas and concepts, or to catch a certain famous character.
In that way I agree with Tonya that it`s nice and fair to credit people on a balloonforum if we can (remember), especially if it`s a currently used idea (e.g. Patrick van de Ven came up with a new basic idea for little figures; at millenniumjam people were playing around with this concept and they created some amazing characters – it was great and informative for me that they mentioned that these figures were based on Patrick`s idea ).
In my opinion it would not make sense to credit other artists if advertising for our work. But definitely an artist should use his own pictures of sculptures he twisted himself – otherwise he would fool the customer.
Sabina I think you put my point better than I could! I definitely used the wrong words with my point above which is why I conceded Graham ;) I just think that something even though we may, in the comfort of our own living room, believe is a truly original model has probably also been created before somewhere in the world and may even be posted on websites too. However, just because it has does not mean that you have borrowed the design!
Also just to play devil's advocate would the lending of dvd's and cd's not increase sale rather than decrease them? I mean instructional materials for balloons are a lot of money (especially in these times of economic hardship) and although I do understand why it is still a reasonable amount of money for someone to spend blind iykwim?
That aside when making a decision to purchase a CD or DVD I prefer to see it in person before making the decision to part with my cash. Before now I have purchase okish DVD's and rubbish CD's because I haven't had the opportunity to see what I was buying before I did so. If I had the opportunity to actually see the contents (not on the net as obviously there are too many that can make models from pics and even a few that would then not feel the need to purchase) and make a proper evaluation of the contents to see if they were what I needed at that particular time I would buy them and if they were too simplistic I know I could recommend them to people just beginning and if they were too advanced I could put them on my wish list for another time when I have improved!
I am thankful to those who produce instructional materials and when I can afford to I do purchase them but it is not often as things are tight so I am even more thankful for resources like this one or I would never be able to improve ;)
Excuse me for being thick Yvonne, but what does 'iykwim' mean? I've seen it a few times and have no idea!! :) :?: :)
Quote from: "Billy Wiz"Excuse me for being thick Yvonne, but what does 'iykwim' mean? I've seen it a few times and have no idea!! :) :?: :)
Graeme I'm glad you asked that as I have no idea either.
LOL that's ironic it means "if you know what I mean?"
ha ha . . . simple now!! :roll:
Yvonne, not sure about Graeme but don't forget that I'm old :roll:
LOL I don't know much text talk as I have worked as a legal PA before so I find it much easier to type things out the long way but "LOL" and "iykwim" seem to have stuck. As for the rest of it I am just as clueless as you guys ;)
... and I thought it might be another interesting english word I haven`t heard before :)
Graham, we all know you are not old ;)
Quote from: "sabina"... Graham, we all know you are not old ;)
YES he is! ;)
Copycats!
When I first started several years ago I started out doing local supermarkets with what I thought was a friend. I liked to work 'with a friend' as it over come nerves I guess in the early days and you could bounce jokes off each other. However, I was the one buying the books (the Italian ones which you may know) and whatever videos / literature was available at the time. It was becoming apparent that every time we done a 'gig' he would start producing very much the same as me. It gets to a point where you don't mind sharing but it was all one way traffic with him not putting his hand in his pocket. I finally snapped one day when I was learning to Do Harry Potter from Shirley Rays instructions at home. He had been to visit me and saw what I was doing, then went. I got a phone call an hour later from him saying 'I've done 2 of those Harry Potters you were making, how much should I sell them for etc?' After a few home truths about him not buying things or chipping in with ideas his toys came out of the pram and we basically haven't spoke since.
The upside - I'm moving on looking for new ideas and designs he still does the models he learnt all those years ago.
We were hoping this topic would have got people joining in more and giving their honest thoughts and not just sitting on the fence.
It's nice that some have but with nearly 600 members I think Danny and I were hoping more would join in and contribute.
It's not too late!!!
Just because November has passed you can still add to this thread with your comments and thoughts